Saturday, October 02, 2004
Shh! dont tell my assignment, but im cheating on it! I felt guilty about not having posted this yet, so ill do it now! ^_^ procrastination after all, is the aim of this site! So, without further ado, I present:
"Help, I've Fallen and I can't get up!"
We are a fallen race. There are no two ways about it. Humanity as a whole, and each individual has sinned, and fallen away from the perfection we were created in. Ghandi sinned. Mother Theresa Sinned. EVERYONE sins.
This fallenness is absolutely essential if we are to call ourselves Christians. If we believe that we arent fallen beyond all hope, then we totally undermine everything we stand for. Ill elaborate.
When I say Fallen, I mean REALLY fallen. first there was only one sin, one original sin.. but it introduced sin into an otherwise perfect creation. From then on in, everyone has sinned, and as such, falls short of perfection, falls short of the Glory of God. There is no way we can redeem ourselves, or as some suggest, work off their sins. The Wages of Sin is Death. Ask yourself. Have you sinned? how many times? can you even count them? If you say you can then add another few cause youre lying! ^_^
What is a Sin? Is it only a Judaeo/Christian 'thing' that makes us feel bad about doing certain things? no. For the purpose of this here, i will define sin as: "Any thought, word or activity that harms (directly or indirectly) yourself or others." This is a very humanist way of looking at Sin, but this is a perfect way of describing it to those who arent Christian, and will think you are Bible bashing. Even humanists will agree with you there (at least on the harming others part). Atheists wont like to admit it, but they'll know you're right, and Agnostics..well it'll give them something to think about! :)
Im sure everyone's heard people say: 'Im not perfect, but i try to lead a good life.' yep definately admirable! eveyrone should be trying to do that! Christians and Humanists, Other religions and atheists alike. But the danger in this is, that some people believe that this is all that is needed. Some say that we arent really fallen beyond all hope. Some believe that there is a purgatory, where Everyone will go after they die, and stay there till they atone for their sins.
I wont get into the whole Works Vs Faith debate here because the answer is quite simple. Works can never make us holy, can never atone, because of the simple fact that we have sinned. There was only one person in Human history who did not Sin.
Jesus.
And here we come to the cruncher.
Jesus, the Christ. Christians are 'those who follow Christ', or 'imitators of Christ' Reuben made a comment on Andrew's blog recentley, saying that maybe the gospel is grossly misunderstood. That We are saved, not by believing in Jesus and the resurrection, by following his example
I would like to say that this is not right. I dont mean to sound harsh here but i believe that this is a very very misleading idea, and i want to qualify why i think that. If we can be saved by following Christ's example, by living a godly life, and worshipping the father, then we are not Christians. We are Jews. The Jews believe that they did not need a spiritual messiah because their sins could be atoned for by sacrifices and good works. They believe that Humanity is not totally fallen.
The whole point of Christianity is that Jesus, the Son of God, sent by the Father, came to Earth for the very purpose of Dying and being raised again to allow us to be reconciled to God. To atone for our sins, because he, being the only sinless human, was the only one who could. Sound familiar? ill phrase it another way:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the World, that He sent His one and only Son. That whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Andrew asked, 'what about Abraham and those born BC?: Romans 2:12-16 Talks about those who have not heard about the Gospel, and how they are justified by their adherence to the law. This is ok. But if someone has heard about Jesus..about God, there is no excuse. As for the OT people:
Andrew quoted the 'justification by faith' verse but missed the implication therein. If one was justified by faith, why cant another be justified by faith? If Abraham, why not Joseph and his brothers? Why not Jacob? Why not Elijah? why not Elim Kalish Isab, a levite who is faithful to God? why not N'tuku, African Chieftan who obeys the law, They were born Before Christ, and since they had faith and obeyed the law, God would likewise have credited it to them as righteousness. For what is a righteous person if not: "Morally upright; without guilt or sin" (www.dictionary.com). Faith=righteousness in the OT. Even though all were fallen, they could be made righteous by their faith and obedience to God.
Put very basically, here is my point.
If we are not totally fallen. If by living up to the example set by Jesus, if by spending a period of time in eternity being purified (as Origen suggests) that anyone can be reconcilled to God, if all of this is possible, there is no reason for Jesus to have come to earth at all. In fact, Jesus Death and Ressurection mean nothing. If we weren't totally fallen, then..well, thanks anyway Big J, but we can save ourselves! thanks for showing that you are willing to die and sacrifice yourself, but why did you do it? just to prove you could rise again?
The whole point of the Ressurection is that sin and death were defeated, that the veil was torn in two and people could now be reconcilled with God. If we believe even remotely that there is any other way (other than putting our faith in Jesus as our risen Lord who reconciles us to God) that we, or anyone can be saved, then Jesus' death is meaningless, and Christianity becomes "How" instead of "why".
One of the Biggest difficulties I see with Spreading Christianity today is that it involves telling people that yes, they are sinful. this is a hard thing to swallow for anyone. Even more hard is that the sin can never be made up for on its own.
Its hard to accept that we arent good. That we have to rely on someone else to make it up for us. but its something that everyone has to face up to sooner or later. everything else in the meantime is a distraction. When all that ends, the truth still remains.
So! After writing all that and re-reading it, im worried it might come out as an attack aginst you Reubs and Andy! But really its not! You guys are cool! Im just pointing out some stuff that i think may be very helpful. Feel free to nitpick my argument (which is hardly airtight yet..) so that i can improve it, and clarify any points! ^_^
Okees! Off to do some Assignment now! Good old Maori Warfare! we need a Haka! Take it away Mike! ;)
SAM
"Help, I've Fallen and I can't get up!"
We are a fallen race. There are no two ways about it. Humanity as a whole, and each individual has sinned, and fallen away from the perfection we were created in. Ghandi sinned. Mother Theresa Sinned. EVERYONE sins.
This fallenness is absolutely essential if we are to call ourselves Christians. If we believe that we arent fallen beyond all hope, then we totally undermine everything we stand for. Ill elaborate.
When I say Fallen, I mean REALLY fallen. first there was only one sin, one original sin.. but it introduced sin into an otherwise perfect creation. From then on in, everyone has sinned, and as such, falls short of perfection, falls short of the Glory of God. There is no way we can redeem ourselves, or as some suggest, work off their sins. The Wages of Sin is Death. Ask yourself. Have you sinned? how many times? can you even count them? If you say you can then add another few cause youre lying! ^_^
What is a Sin? Is it only a Judaeo/Christian 'thing' that makes us feel bad about doing certain things? no. For the purpose of this here, i will define sin as: "Any thought, word or activity that harms (directly or indirectly) yourself or others." This is a very humanist way of looking at Sin, but this is a perfect way of describing it to those who arent Christian, and will think you are Bible bashing. Even humanists will agree with you there (at least on the harming others part). Atheists wont like to admit it, but they'll know you're right, and Agnostics..well it'll give them something to think about! :)
Im sure everyone's heard people say: 'Im not perfect, but i try to lead a good life.' yep definately admirable! eveyrone should be trying to do that! Christians and Humanists, Other religions and atheists alike. But the danger in this is, that some people believe that this is all that is needed. Some say that we arent really fallen beyond all hope. Some believe that there is a purgatory, where Everyone will go after they die, and stay there till they atone for their sins.
I wont get into the whole Works Vs Faith debate here because the answer is quite simple. Works can never make us holy, can never atone, because of the simple fact that we have sinned. There was only one person in Human history who did not Sin.
Jesus.
And here we come to the cruncher.
Jesus, the Christ. Christians are 'those who follow Christ', or 'imitators of Christ' Reuben made a comment on Andrew's blog recentley, saying that maybe the gospel is grossly misunderstood. That We are saved, not by believing in Jesus and the resurrection, by following his example
I would like to say that this is not right. I dont mean to sound harsh here but i believe that this is a very very misleading idea, and i want to qualify why i think that. If we can be saved by following Christ's example, by living a godly life, and worshipping the father, then we are not Christians. We are Jews. The Jews believe that they did not need a spiritual messiah because their sins could be atoned for by sacrifices and good works. They believe that Humanity is not totally fallen.
The whole point of Christianity is that Jesus, the Son of God, sent by the Father, came to Earth for the very purpose of Dying and being raised again to allow us to be reconciled to God. To atone for our sins, because he, being the only sinless human, was the only one who could. Sound familiar? ill phrase it another way:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the World, that He sent His one and only Son. That whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Andrew asked, 'what about Abraham and those born BC?: Romans 2:12-16 Talks about those who have not heard about the Gospel, and how they are justified by their adherence to the law. This is ok. But if someone has heard about Jesus..about God, there is no excuse. As for the OT people:
Andrew quoted the 'justification by faith' verse but missed the implication therein. If one was justified by faith, why cant another be justified by faith? If Abraham, why not Joseph and his brothers? Why not Jacob? Why not Elijah? why not Elim Kalish Isab, a levite who is faithful to God? why not N'tuku, African Chieftan who obeys the law, They were born Before Christ, and since they had faith and obeyed the law, God would likewise have credited it to them as righteousness. For what is a righteous person if not: "Morally upright; without guilt or sin" (www.dictionary.com). Faith=righteousness in the OT. Even though all were fallen, they could be made righteous by their faith and obedience to God.
Put very basically, here is my point.
If we are not totally fallen. If by living up to the example set by Jesus, if by spending a period of time in eternity being purified (as Origen suggests) that anyone can be reconcilled to God, if all of this is possible, there is no reason for Jesus to have come to earth at all. In fact, Jesus Death and Ressurection mean nothing. If we weren't totally fallen, then..well, thanks anyway Big J, but we can save ourselves! thanks for showing that you are willing to die and sacrifice yourself, but why did you do it? just to prove you could rise again?
The whole point of the Ressurection is that sin and death were defeated, that the veil was torn in two and people could now be reconcilled with God. If we believe even remotely that there is any other way (other than putting our faith in Jesus as our risen Lord who reconciles us to God) that we, or anyone can be saved, then Jesus' death is meaningless, and Christianity becomes "How" instead of "why".
One of the Biggest difficulties I see with Spreading Christianity today is that it involves telling people that yes, they are sinful. this is a hard thing to swallow for anyone. Even more hard is that the sin can never be made up for on its own.
Its hard to accept that we arent good. That we have to rely on someone else to make it up for us. but its something that everyone has to face up to sooner or later. everything else in the meantime is a distraction. When all that ends, the truth still remains.
So! After writing all that and re-reading it, im worried it might come out as an attack aginst you Reubs and Andy! But really its not! You guys are cool! Im just pointing out some stuff that i think may be very helpful. Feel free to nitpick my argument (which is hardly airtight yet..) so that i can improve it, and clarify any points! ^_^
Okees! Off to do some Assignment now! Good old Maori Warfare! we need a Haka! Take it away Mike! ;)
SAM
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